This seems to be a rhetorical question as you know more than most about the differences and only you can make the choice of which to purchase

 

I only know what I've read. I don't know, which is why I asked, about the E-CVT vs M-CVT. I also don't know how the European HEV compares in performance to the US 1.5T. If anyone has any online reviews or videos that they can point me to, or personal experience, I would appreciate it. I would also think there are others in a similar position to mine, so curious as to their thoughts.

 

It depends on what you expect out of the Hybrid model and what your driving habits are.

I will say that I bought my 2022 and 2023 Civic Hatchbacks (one 6MT, one CVT) after having a few years of experience with a 2020 CR-V Hybrid, "going backwards" if you will technology-wise.

This is because I got the Hybrid CR-V based on the idea that it actually had more power than the ICE CR-V that year, plus better city driving fuel economy, which accounts for more than 50% of my driving time (if not by miles).

Now, the 2023 CR-V Hybrid is probably improved, so I would expect the 2023 Civic Hybrid to maybe be a different animal as well. Still, I found my experience with the 2020 CR-V Hybrid disappointing in several ways, and would want to find out how they were addressed, or if these are basically part of Honda's Hybrid design strategy:

1 - you only really get the electric motor assist after the battery warms up, which can take 10-15 minutes depending on the ambient temperature. So if your "city driving" tends to be 15 minute or shorter drives, as mine often are, you won't see nearly as much of a fuel economy gain as you might think.

If I drove on local roads/in the city for 30-45 minutes I got GREAT fuel economy, like 40-45 MPG. But for a 15 minute trip, more like 22-23 MPG (it basically just used the ICE).

2 - the electric motor only adds power up to around 62 MPH (100 km/h). At highway speeds, which in the US is 65+ MPH, they basically do nothing unless you're coasting for a while on a slight downhill and the car decides it can turn off the engine for a bit.

So all the "extra HP" they talk about, it's for adding power/torque at city driving speeds, or for merging with traffic from an on-ramp. Which is very useful, but NOT for driving at 75 MPH - the engine whines loudly and unpleasantly while sapping fuel economy - nor for passing at highway speeds.

Put those two together, and after a full year of combined daily driving, my average MPG on the dashboard was around 33.5 MPG (real world, odometer reading divided by fuel added to tank, about 31 MPG).

With my 11th gen Civics with the 1.5T entine, I am averaging about 31 MPG on the dashboard (29.5 "real world") combined, and it's MUCH more fun, quiet at highway speeds, with plenty of power to pass on the highway. And I can get 34 MPG cruising at 75 MPH.

However, if you're fine with keeping at 65-70 MPH max on open highways, and regularly drive over 20 minutes at a time in slower moving traffic, the Hybrid would be a great option.

 

If the North American hev Civic is similar to the European one, expect that the hev will be slightly quicker to 60mph and get 40% better fuel economy (50 mpg combined city/highway) than the turbo Civic. Note though that the hev has a slower top speed (about 115 mph).

Like most hybrids, the hev gets better mileage in urban environments than on the highway. Both the turbo and the hev get about 40 mpg on the highway if you limit your speed to 70 mph or lower. The hev’s big advantage is in urban driving. The turbo gets about 30 mpg in town(at best). The hev gets about 60 mpg in town.

So, if most of your driving is done in town, the hev will pay for itself in gas savings. If most of your driving is on the highway, the turbo is probably the better bet.

One more thing to consider is the hev is relatively new technology. Expect more problems than the turbo which has been around since 2016.

 

If the North American hev Civic is similar to the European one, expect that the hev will be slightly quicker to 60mph and get 40% better fuel economy (50 mpg combined city/highway) than the turbo Civic. Note though that the hev has a slower top speed (about 115 mph).

Like most hybrids, the hev gets better mileage in urban environments than on the highway. Both the turbo and the hev get about 40 mpg on the highway if you limit your speed to 70 mph or lower. The hev’s big advantage is in urban driving. The turbo gets about 30 mpg in town(at best). The hev gets about 60 mpg in town.

So, if most of your driving is done in town, the hev will pay for itself in gas savings. If most of your driving is on the highway, the turbo is probably the better bet.

One more thing to consider is the hev is relatively new technology. Expect more problems than the turbo which has been around since 2016.

That's why I mentioned my experience with the 2020 CR-V Hybrid earlier that the HEV also takes time to get into operating condition - the battery needs to warm up.

Unlike a full electric vehicle, the car is basically a "normal" and somewhat underpowered ICE for the first 10-15 minutes or so after you cold start it, depending on the ambient temperature.

So add to that, "the HEV's big advantage is in SUSTAINED urban driving". It's very good if you're like an Uber driver or something. It's not bad, but much less good (compared to the turbo version), if the majority of your urban trips end in 20 minutes or less between starting and parking the car.

 

Price is the unknown right now, but based on my guess I don’t think the fuel savings will pay off for a long time, like all new hybrids. Before the civic I had a used Prius that I loved but I got it cheap too so it made sense compared to my get used cars at the time. I actually averaged 50mpg in it, and based on my calculations it costs me around 400 bucks a year more to run the 1.5t cvt. My guess is that the hybrid civic will cost closer to 35 than to 30, so may be a few years until you get break even in that regard. I don’t think the performance is going to be enough of an improvement either, at least not with how more than adequate the 1.5t is.

 

Thank all, some good info to think about. I live in New England, so 5-6 months out of the year are cold in the mornings or when the car has been sitting. My driving is mixed city/highway, and I also have a mixture of short/medium/long trips. I work from home but also drive to meet clients and do shoots, so it's not very predictable. 70mph or lower on the highway is not usually my thing either . So I think I may just go with the 1.5T instead of waiting for the hybrid. I also plan to keep this car for a very long time, so the more proven the engine, the better.

Now I need to decide on a color: Rallye Red or Platinum White Pearl. I've seen a few in person, but neither on the hatchback, as no dealer has any in stock - all "in transit" or special orders. I like them both, and it's quite hard to decide. White is nice, but in time will it show scuffs more than the red? At the same time, the Rallye Red seems to be a flat, non-metallic paint, so that can also show marks and stuff in time. I plan to get it ceramic coated and PPF'd, but yeah, not sure. A third option is the Meteorite Gray Metallic. Seems "safe".

 

The gray looks a bit drab when new but ages better than most other colors. If you plan on keeping it a long time, gray is great.

 

I'm in the UK and have been checking out various comments on a few forums relating to the 11th gen civic for a few months, to see what others experiences are and have been of this vehicle.

I came across this forum, and although I realise now there is no relevant info for me here on the hybrid civic, I thought I'd respond to this thread with what I know of the e-hev.

I appreciate that this is a north American site, and so experience of the e-hev is limited or totally lacking in real world driving, but, I can assure anyone wondering, that the driving experience is simply excellent. The torque figure mentioned previously really is there to be felt. This is an incredibly responsive car, with silky smooth power delivery and beautiful driving dynamics. It's very very hard to fault and is head and shoulders above a number of other vehicles in the same class.

The hybrid system uses an ICE to power a generator that in turn powers drive motor, so in effect, the car drives as an EV, and then at higher speeds, the engine engages through a clutch system to take over the main drive of the vehicle. Its completely seamless and is virtually impossible to feel any transition of power delivery. It really is very special.

I had actually placed an order for one, although it appears Honda is in a proper mess with their production, especially of the civic, and so, many have been receiving calls to cancel their orders, with lead times now extending to beyond a year or more. I have yet to speak to the dealer I ordered with, but my belief is that I can forget getting one now, due to these issues. It's a real shame, because the car left a major impression on both myself and my wife when we drove it.

Still, on the point of comparing the new hybrid to the ICE 1.5 turbo, the new hybrid is the clear winner, on all fronts and by some margin too.

Hope this helps, though I see at present, you aren't able to get the e-hev there anyway. That may make your decision for you.

Good luck whatever your choice.

 

I had actually placed an order for one, although it appears Honda is in a proper mess with their production, especially of the civic, and so, many have been receiving calls to cancel their orders, with lead times now extending to beyond a year or more. I have yet to speak to the dealer I ordered with, but my belief is that I can forget getting one now, due to these issues. It's a real shame, because the car left a major impression on both myself and my wife when we drove it.

Still, on the point of comparing the new hybrid to the ICE 1.5 turbo, the new hybrid is the clear winner, on all fronts and by some margin too.

Hope this helps, though I see at present, you aren't able to get the e-hev there anyway. That may make your decision for you.

Good luck whatever your choice.

Thanks for sharing your experience. Honda is supposed to introduce the hybrid Civic in the US later this year, as a 2024 model. If supply chain issues are a mess there, it could also affect availability here. I may get the 1.5T now and change it in a few years to the hybrid when hopefully things with supply calm down. Even here, getting a 1.5T hatchback is hard - I have to order one basically.

 

Yea I wouldn’t really call the 1.5t “more proven” than the hybrid. Hybrids are way more simple and reliable than people realize, especially compared to a car with a turbo and all of the extra potential failure points that come with it. I own the 1.5t and I would 10/10 times go to the Hybrid for ultimate reliability and lower maintenance.

No starter
No alternator
No accessory belts (Prius had electric AC and no belt, I’m sure this does too)
Lower load on engine at all times
No turbo = no added oil lines, water lines, charge pipes to fail

 

Yea I wouldn’t really call the 1.5t “more proven” than the hybrid. Hybrids are way more simple and reliable than people realize, especially compared to a car with a turbo and all of the extra potential failure points that come with it. I own the 1.5t and I would 10/10 times go to the Hybrid for ultimate reliability and lower maintenance.

No starter
No alternator
No accessory belts (Prius had electric AC and no belt, I’m sure this does too)
Lower load on engine at all times
No turbo = no added oil lines, water lines, charge pipes to fail

Have you had issues with your Civic? Are there some known issues? I couldn't find anything about this. I assume Honda is pretty damn reliable. I have read the eCVT is not as "sporty" as the M-CVT.

 

This guy has plenty of videos on both of those transmissions. Complete teardowns it's pretty interesting stuff. You are correct it's significantly weighs more.

To be honest though more moving parts more to go wrong. The transmission also doesn't have the best track record. Nor does its battery have a good track record. This is all in concerns to reliability over years. That's just my opinion though for a vehicle that costs over 20k. Another thing you'll have to consider is Atkinson cycle over the normal Otto cycle engine. It doesn't have the best track record as well in concerns to reliability. You can read about pros cons reliability of it here Atkinson cycle: what it is and how these engines work

Another thing to keep in mind yes the 1.5L turbo engine is fun. However it doesn't have the best track record either. Neither of these engines are considered speed demons. Not in these formats anyway. It also caused Honda to de-badge the 1.5L and 2.0L engine. If you look on their valve covers they no longer have the earth dreams badge. Clearly a marketing decision by Honda to avoid the stigma this lawsuit created. You can read all about that lawsuit here Class Action Alleges Honda Hid Engine Oil Dilution ‘Defect’ in Newer CR-V, Civic, Accord Models

An attempted software fix was made on the 1.5 L turbo engine. It lessened the problem but it did not eliminate it. The true fix for that problem would require a complete engine tear down. Very costly new piston rings lower injector pressure redesign positive crankcase ventilation. That's why an oil catch can is a popular mod for that engine.
When it comes to battery used for propulsion in vehicles. I look at a battery and how many charge cycles it has. A battery just like a cell phone has a limited number of times it can be charged. Once it reaches that mark it will need to be replaced and they are not cheap. Extreme heat and extreme cold also affect the battery negatively. If you've ever kept a cell phone long enough it will fail to charge. That or it will drain very quickly effectively only working while plugged in. Using regenerative braking in a vehicle maintain a very low level charge once that happens. That's really going to cut into the efficiency gains. Not to mention over stress all those charging components leading to early failure. The battery replacement cost can easily be half or exceed the cost of the car. I've seen the standard car battery used for a starter give out. When it comes winter causing a vehicle to fail starting. Which every internal combustion engine must have even if it's paired with supplemental electric motor power propulsion battery system.

If you're looking at this from a cost savings point of view. A return on your initial purchase and investment point of view. I think I would look elsewhere to be honest. Something with a long track record for reliability and efficiency. New technologies are always a gamble but some people take that gamble. Some people don't keep their cell phones or cars long enough to see these problems. However if they've established a track record by then that really hurts resale value. Looking at the track record though of the components that do have them. I think I would go with a standard 2.0L K series engine. The long name of the engine is K20C2. The transmission it is mated with in the civic hatchback sport has a good track record also. Some even consider that engine a legend famous for reliability. It also averages about 37ish MPG when mated to a standard CVT. Keep in mind a CVT transmission as of current date can only hold about 250 horsepower and torque. If you were looking to modify the vehicle beyond that. Which it wouldn't be very hard to do the 2.0 L would still be a better option. Outfitted with a single or twin turbos with a manual transmission option. Removing most of the limiting factors allowing it to roar. On the electric side you would need a piggyback system for tuning full harness. It probably wouldn't hurt to upgrade the handling suspension components. In such a light chassis you really do have a speed demon at that point you're off to the races. Hopefully this helps with your research into the transmissions - engines all that good stuff. GL

 

An attempted software fix was made on the 1.5 L turbo engine. It lessened the problem but it did not eliminate it. The true fix for that problem would require a complete engine tear down. Very costly new piston rings lower injector pressure redesign positive crankcase ventilation. That's why an oil catch can is a popular mod for that engine.
When it comes to battery used for propulsion in vehicles. I look at a battery and how many charge cycles it has. A battery just like a cell phone has a limited number of times it can be charged. Once it reaches that mark it will need to be replaced and they are not cheap. Extreme heat and extreme cold also affect the battery negatively. If you've ever kept a cell phone long enough it will fail to charge. That or it will drain very quickly effectively only working while plugged in. Using regenerative braking in a vehicle maintain a very low level charge once that happens. That's really going to cut into the efficiency gains. Not to mention over stress all those charging components leading to early failure. The battery replacement cost can easily be half or exceed the cost of the car. I've seen the standard car battery used for a starter give out. When it comes winter causing a vehicle to fail starting. Which every internal combustion engine must have even if it's paired with supplemental electric motor power propulsion battery system.

If you're looking at this from a cost savings point of view. A return on your initial purchase and investment point of view. I think I would look elsewhere to be honest. Something with a long track record for reliability and efficiency. New technologies are always a gamble but some people take that gamble. Some people don't keep their cell phones or cars long enough to see these problems. However if they've established a track record by then that really hurts resale value. Looking at the track record though of the components that do have them. I think I would go with a standard 2.0L K series engine. The long name of the engine is K20C2. The transmission it is mated with in the civic hatchback sport has a good track record also. Some even consider that engine a legend famous for reliability. It also averages about 37ish MPG when mated to a standard CVT. Keep in mind a CVT transmission as of current date can only hold about 250 horsepower and torque. If you were looking to modify the vehicle beyond that. Which it wouldn't be very hard to do the 2.0 L would still be a better option. Outfitted with a single or twin turbos with a manual transmission option. Removing most of the limiting factors allowing it to roar. On the electric side you would need a piggyback system for tuning full harness. It probably wouldn't hurt to upgrade the handling suspension components. In such a light chassis you really do have a speed demon at that point you're off to the races. Hopefully this helps with your research into the transmissions - engines all that good stuff. GL

Interesting info - I had no clue. Thanks for all that. I looked at the lawsuit and it appears the models affected are the 2019-2023 Honda CR-Vs, 2019-2022 Honda Civics and 2018-2022 Honda Accords. So something changed in the 2023 Civics and Accords? The software fix you mentioned? Or something else?

The 2L engine is OK, but I'm not a fan of the trim level it's offered in - the base. So that sucks. I don't want to take risks, but maybe the 2023s have some "silent" fix in them?

 

Hey,

I own a Civic e:HEV here in Spain and I would tell you to hold a bit more and wait for it.

First thing, this car does not have a gearbox. It has a clutch mechanism that allows the ICE to move the wheels under specific conditions. For the most part the car is being pushed by the electric motor. The ICE mostly stands as a generator to provide electricity to the electric engine.

All this translates into "EV-Like" performance. Quick and seamless launches , smooth acceleration and immediate throttle response. The car has no lag whatsoever and when put in sport mode it is hella responsive. You will feel the torque for sure.

My car is hard-capped at 190 Km/H, which is totally fine in Spain (german users might complain though haha). I've done some launches vs some of my friends who own the 10th gen 182hp 1.5T and I literally smoke them.

Wait and see if you can test drive one soon and you will not regret it

 

Hey,

I own a Civic e:HEV here in Spain and I would tell you to hold a bit more and wait for it.

First thing, this car does not have a gearbox. It has a clutch mechanism that allows the ICE to move the wheels under specific conditions. For the most part the car is being pushed by the electric motor. The ICE mostly stands as a generator to provide electricity to the electric engine.

All this translates into "EV-Like" performance. Quick and seamless launches , smooth acceleration and immediate throttle response. The car has no lag whatsoever and when put in sport mode it is hella responsive. You will feel the torque for sure.

My car is hard-capped at 190 Km/H, which is totally fine in Spain (german users might complain though haha). I've done some launches vs some of my friends who own the 10th gen 182hp 1.5T and I literally smoke them.

Wait and see if you can test drive one soon and you will not regret it

Agree 100% with what Move says here. It's a very nice thing to use, and all things considered, if it proves reliable, I'd say it'll be great to live with.

Honda have nailed it with this model. Shame they are in such a production mess right now.

Let's hope it gets sorted out.

 

I drove only the pure ICE models & fell in love with the brake feel. How's the e:HEV version?