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What fuel grade will you run?

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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Honda has been stating that the 2022 1.5l turbo engine can perform at 180 horsepower with 87 octane, but as dyno'd it has shown to be about 15-20 wheel horsepower less than this number (hub driven dyno by hondata).


164 horsepower at 4263 rpm (at the wheels)
165 lb-ft torque at 5911 rpm (at the wheels)

In the owners manual for the 2022 civic hatchback 1.5l turbo it says "Unleaded gasoline, pump octane number 87 or higher" while looking at the previous 1.5l turbo models it states

Models with SPORT mode
Use of unleaded gasoline of 91 octane or higher is recommended.
Models without SPORT mode
Use of unleaded gasoline of 87 octane or higher is recommended

Has honda started using like an ethanol content type of measurement to change the tune based on octane rating between 87-91? Going to be getting my hatchback soon and feel like with any turbo car I should run premium octane fuel so this will be no different; but surprised when there wasn't much information from the manual about this, and so far only hondata has measured the base 87 octane vs a retuned 91 octane (vs potentially just running 91 octane stock).

What do you all think?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Absolutely it seems normal, that is more of a mere reference point. I hoped they did the test with 91 octane without a tuning change to see if the computer adjusts for anything, considering the ambiguity in the owners manual and previous years information about using higher octane in sport mode with the 1.5l turbo.
 

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2022 Civic Hatchback ST 6MT in PWP
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I think this is going to be the same thing as to why they removed the turbo boost meter that was there in the 10th gen Civics: to differentiate the Si and the Type R from the "base" Civics.

As RobbJK replied when I wondered about that,

They removed the boost meter. It was always slightly pointless (though I enjoy having it on my 19' EX coupe) and it sucks they took it away. The Si and CTR models may get it back.

I think a lot of the decisions and little feature differences between the 10th and 11th can be summed up in how the designers positioned the car
. Honda America designed and wanted the 10th gen civic to be a sporty performance oriented car, hence the slightly overdone styling and things like a turbo gauge. Honda Japan obviously didn't see the equity in the civic being positioned as an outright sporty model, and rather saw it as a premium compact... hence the more mature styling, less outright sporty appointments, etc. [in the 11th gen]
It's not clear if they actually "de-tuned" the SPORT mode in the 11th gen Civics with CVTs to "do less" (where formerly, it could "do more" with 91+ Octane than with 87); it could be an "undocumented feature".

What I find more interesting is that the PDF manual for the 2022 Civic Sedan currently has this about octane:

Automotive parking light Tire Wheel Automotive tail & brake light Vehicle


Even though there are no 2022 Civic sedans being offered with a manual transmission!

(Are they planning to re-use this manual for the Civic Si, which will come only in a sedan, and only with a manual?)

Meanwhile, the 2022 Civic Hatchback owner's manual (which DOES offer a six-speed manual option) has this:

Automotive parking light Tire Wheel Automotive tail & brake light Hood


I would think they might have "uptuned" the manual transmission Hatchback ST (the way that originally, the 10th Gen Hatchback Sport model with 6MT had a bit more torque and HP); but maybe not, the better to differentiate it from the Si and Type R.

That's OK, Hondata or Ktuner will (or already have) address that :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I don't feel the tuning of the motor will be different from the auto and manual variants of the hatchback 1.5l turbo, which is why I think if the "sport" edition was untold a better tune which required 91 octane+ (maybe more aggressive timing/VTEC).

That is very interesting the sedan that only comes with a CVT shows that, which does seem catered toward an Si option.
 

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2022 Civic Hatchback ST 6MT in PWP
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I don't feel the tuning of the motor will be different from the auto and manual variants of the hatchback 1.5l turbo, which is why I think if the "sport" edition was untold a better tune which required 91 octane+ (maybe more aggressive timing/VTEC).

That is very interesting the sedan that only comes with a CVT shows that, which does seem catered toward an Si option.
Yes, and yet, Honda de-tuning even the 11th gen "Sport" trims in performance (making them "sport" in cosmetics only) would fit the description of what RobbJK suspects is a change in the branding thing, match the contents of the owners' manual no longer recommending 91 Octane, and the early reviews from C&D or Edmund's about how the 11th gen "feels more refined" but is "inexplicably slower than expected" compared to the 10th gen with basically the same engine and weight.

The only question is if using 91 Octane in an 11th Gen stock vehicle would unlock an "undocumented feature", i.e., if the ECU is actually the same as from the 10th (since the engine and transmission are basically the same), and would give a few more horses or ft-lbs. if fed more premium fuel.

I nominate someone with the means to do so to find out :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
I think if we all pushed Hondata they would be the best ones to test that car, with a stock tune on the same dyno setup to see if 91 makes any difference.

The biggest thing that gets me... is that they even tell you 87 or HIGHER.. Every toyota I have ever owned in my life states premium unleaded fuel or 87 octane. Like without variation in timing the higher octane would be a moot point on a 87 tuned car (coming from a performance tuning stand point)
 

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I think if we all pushed Hondata they would be the best ones to test that car, with a stock tune on the same dyno setup to see if 91 makes any difference.

The biggest thing that gets me... is that they even tell you 87 or HIGHER.. Every toyota I have ever owned in my life states premium unleaded fuel or 87 octane. Like without variation in timing the higher octane would be a moot point on a 87 tuned car (coming from a performance tuning stand point)
Many states 85/86 is regular, in some states 87 doesn't exists at all, it will be 88/89
 

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In my state 85 is regular and 87 is mid.

I'm new to Hondas but not new to tuning or understanding how most ecms work.
On most there are two timing tables. A high and a low octane table. The majority of ecms default to the high table that has more timing advance, if the engine is fed lower octane fuel it has a chance to produce pre-detonation or knock. When the engine sees enough knock it will drop down to the low table or the one that doesn't have as much timing advance.

The thing is adding a higher octane fuel then the ecm is tuned for doesn't "unlock" any settings or introduce more power. It just simply reduced pre-detonation or knock. If you are experiencing knock then the more octane will help.
 

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In my state 85 is regular and 87 is mid.

I'm new to Hondas but not new to tuning or understanding how most ecms work.
On most there are two timing tables. A high and a low octane table. The majority of ecms default to the high table that has more timing advance, if the engine is fed lower octane fuel it has a chance to produce pre-detonation or knock. When the engine sees enough knock it will drop down to the low table or the one that doesn't have as much timing advance.

The thing is adding a higher octane fuel then the ecm is tuned for doesn't "unlock" any settings or introduce more power. It just simply reduced pre-detonation or knock. If you are experiencing knock then the more octane will help.
This is absolutely true, in general.

But my point is that the 11th Gen Civics with 1.5T engines might actually be tuned to give more power with 91+ Octane versus 87, because:

1) they had been so tuned in the 10th Gen (in Sport mode),
2) the engine is otherwise essentially the same between the two,
3) there is still a Sport mode in the 11th Gen

So did Honda actually remove that performance tuning in Sport mode or with the 6MT that kicked in with a higher octane in the 2022 Civics, or just removed mention of the "high octane mapping" in advertising and the owner's manual as part of the image rebranding exercise?

Seems like it'd be less work and expense just to do the latter, right?
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
When the engine sees enough knock it will drop down to the low table or the one that doesn't have as much timing advance.
So that would assume (unless you've seen the tuning variances of new honda tuning) that the hondata dyno above on 87 octane was still on the "higher" aka "normal" timing map if still producing only 9% drivetrain loss to the wheels; whereas there may be an even lower power mode initiated if knock is seen (this seems like speculation to me but I'm only keen on aftermarket performance tuning not OEM maps within the last 15 years)
 

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This is absolutely true, in general.

But my point is that the 11th Gen Civics with 1.5T engines might actually be tuned to give more power with 91+ Octane versus 87, because:

1) they had been so tuned in the 10th Gen (in Sport mode),
2) the engine is otherwise essentially the same between the two,
3) there is still a Sport mode in the 11th Gen

So did Honda actually remove that performance tuning in Sport mode or with the 6MT that kicked in with a higher octane in the 2022 Civics, or just removed mention of the "high octane mapping" in advertising and the owner's manual as part of the image rebranding exercise?

Seems like it'd be less work and expense just to do the latter, right?
there is a possibility that there is a third timing table that's used when only in sport mode. Like I said I'm new to Honda so I don't know for sure how they set up the ecm on the previous gen. Question I have is, Does the Accord do this because everything I saw when looking up this engine is that it has more to do with the Accord engine then the previous Civic.
So that would assume (unless you've seen the tuning variances of new honda tuning) that the hondata dyno above on 87 octane was still on the "higher" aka "normal" timing map if still producing only 9% drivetrain loss to the wheels; whereas there may be an even lower power mode initiated if knock is seen (this seems like speculation to me but I'm only keen on aftermarket performance tuning not OEM maps within the last 15 years)
That would be my guess as well, but me being uneducated on Honda ecms I can't say for sure.
 

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I wouldn’t buy a car that required higher than 87 octane. Unless it was just a weekend type driving car. It’s not worth it to me to pay the extra for premium on a daily basis.
I'm with you. If I drove 12K/year and got 30 MPG that would be 400 gallons annually. At 40₵ extra per gallon that would be $160/year. While that's not going to break me I wouldn't like paying that extra every time I filled up. I really like seeing cars that can use 87 octane.
 

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In my state 85 is regular and 87 is mid.

I'm new to Hondas but not new to tuning or understanding how most ecms work.
On most there are two timing tables. A high and a low octane table. The majority of ecms default to the high table that has more timing advance, if the engine is fed lower octane fuel it has a chance to produce pre-detonation or knock. When the engine sees enough knock it will drop down to the low table or the one that doesn't have as much timing advance.

The thing is adding a higher octane fuel then the ecm is tuned for doesn't "unlock" any settings or introduce more power. It just simply reduced pre-detonation or knock. If you are experiencing knock then the more octane will help.
Welcome to the forum @Squish72.
What octane fuel are you running since 85 is risky to run with from what it seems?
 

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Welcome to the forum @Squish72.
What octane fuel are you running since 85 is risky to run with from what it seems?
I don't have the car yet, hahaha. I have a sport touring hatch waiting to be built. I'm at a decent altitude (6700ft) above sea level and that helps reduce octane requirements but I'll probably just run 87 in it when I get it. I need to look into what is the best software to data log the Hondas so I can be sure what I should be running.
 

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Honda has been stating that the 2022 1.5l turbo engine can perform at 180 horsepower with 87 octane, but as dyno'd it has shown to be about 15-20 wheel horsepower less than this number (hub driven dyno by hondata).


164 horsepower at 4263 rpm (at the wheels)
165 lb-ft torque at 5911 rpm (at the wheels)

In the owners manual for the 2022 civic hatchback 1.5l turbo it says "Unleaded gasoline, pump octane number 87 or higher" while looking at the previous 1.5l turbo models it states

Models with SPORT mode
Use of unleaded gasoline of 91 octane or higher is recommended.
Models without SPORT mode
Use of unleaded gasoline of 87 octane or higher is recommended

Has honda started using like an ethanol content type of measurement to change the tune based on octane rating between 87-91? Going to be getting my hatchback soon and feel like with any turbo car I should run premium octane fuel so this will be no different; but surprised when there wasn't much information from the manual about this, and so far only hondata has measured the base 87 octane vs a retuned 91 octane (vs potentially just running 91 octane stock).

What do you all think?
I just watched an episode of "Engine Masters" Does octane make more power ? and the answer is No. It just stops the ping/knock of higher compression engines.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Does octane make more power ? and the answer is No. It just stops the ping/knock of higher compression engines.
Jim this is pretty pointless to mention when we're talking about a turbocharged engine which can vary cylinder compression easily and increase/decrease timing maps electronically. The question is not whether higher octane gas makes more power because I clearly know it does allow you to raise the boost and timing of a motor and that DOES increase power. In a NA motor higher octane would only allow increase timing, which is ALSO more power. But with nothing changed, nothing will change.

The question more referenced in this original topic (maybe unclear) is that Honda's owners manual of the 2022 civic sport touring hatchback with the 1.5l turbo motor, it tells you "Use of unleaded gasoline of 87 octane or higher is recommended". Now if we have zero control over increasing boost or changing timing maps, then this would be rather pointless to confuse owners by mentioning a range of fuels rather than typical of most manufacturers to run a specific fuel octane (both my lexus say "Use premium fuel only").

So without knowing, or having it blankly stated it "appears" like the car can automatically change boost reference or run increase timing when running premium fuel compared to regular. I've heard that the boost reference is set to ~16 psi but runs ~14 most of the time and people with aftermarket tunes on OEM cars are running 18-21 psi on premium fuel without issue, so its not out of the question to say the computer is smart enough to read octane or ethanol content and have different actual "sport" vs "eco" modes.
 

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I just watched an episode of "Engine Masters" Does octane make more power ? and the answer is No. It just stops the ping/knock of higher compression engines.
They taught us in university (chemistry degree) that premium fuel actually contains less energy than regular. However, the molecules in regular gasoline are longer chains as opposed to premium gas which contains rounder molecules. The rounder molecules burn more predictably - more evenly and quicker - enabling more usable power in engines.
 
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