Why did Honda under rate power on the civic SI?

Jbark · Apr 17, 2023

I just got delivery of my new SI and I'm patiently working my way through the break-in period. As many of you know, Hondata have thrown the stock 11th gen SI up on a dyno and measured 222-25 whp, which is a large chunk more than the official specs published by Honda.

So I've been wondering, why rate a car 5hp LESS than the previous generation, when it is in reality close to 25hp MORE than that generation?

My original theory was that they needed to rate the Integra at 200hp to make a large enough gap between the A-spec model and the forthcoming Type S, and that, consequently, the SI needed to be rated at 200hp to match, on paper, the specs of the Integra. I figured the Type S would come in around 240-50hp, or maybe 275, and that releasing the Integra at 225hp would not create enough of a difference to justify the price hike.

But as we now know, the Type S will be rated at 320hp, 5hp MORE than the Civic type R... It seems to me that had they released the Civic SI with an official 220/225hp spec, a 100hp gap to the Type S would more than ensure that the Type S would appeal to a different demographic and not split as many people between the SI/Integra and the type R/Type S.

So... what gives? Why under-rate the SI by so much, or by anything at all for that matter? Is there some kind of 200hp threshold in the industry, above which a company is penalized (thinking emissions, or governmental regulations...)?

Any theories...?

BlazedSi · Apr 17, 2023

It isn't

Jbark · Apr 17, 2023

BlazedSi said:
It isn't

isn't... what? Producing more horsepower? under rated? I'm not sure I understand your comment. I can post the dyno videos that Hondata have online if your assertion is that they haven't found it to produce more hp.

Or have I been misled? open to being convinced.

cleanneon98 · Apr 17, 2023

Different types of dynos in different places (elevations mostly) that are all calibrated differently will read differently. You say Honda under-rated the power on the Si, someone else might say that Hondata Dyno is giving extra power to make their aftermarket stuff seem better than it is. Ultimately I trust Honda's R&D more than an aftermarket company who wants to show power improvements to their customers. It's very beneficial to a company like Hondata to say "our product X gets you to ___whp" which might look amazing on paper, until you realize that their baseline power numbers are all a certain percentage too high.

Honda rates the car at 200 at the crank, which is probably 180 at the wheels in most places. The fact Hondata is claiming 225whp, which is closer to 250hp crank, makes me really question their equipment at best, but more-so their honesty and integrity. Having driven the Si, it does not feel anywhere near the figures that Hondata would suggest, and 0-60 and 1/4 mile times would agree

Jbark · Apr 17, 2023

cleanneon98 said:
Different types of dynos in different places (elevations mostly) that are all calibrated differently will read differently. You say Honda under-rated the power on the Si, someone else might say that Hondata Dyno is giving extra power to make their aftermarket stuff seem better than it is. Ultimately I trust Honda's R&D more than an aftermarket company who wants to show power improvements to their customers. It's very beneficial to a company like Hondata to say "our product X gets you to ___whp" which might look amazing on paper, until you realize that their baseline power numbers are all a certain percentage too high.

They were very clear that what they were testing was a stock SI 'baseline', at room temperature, not modded or using any aftermarket products. I thought this was common knowledge - as it's referred to in the Savage Geese reviews, the Throttle House review and in others as well.

Here is the video (there are others also:

I don't claim to be that knowledgeable at all, so correct me if there is something I am missing, but this video, and the reviews that refer to it, seems to suggest the 20hp I referred to.

cleanneon98 · Apr 17, 2023

Again, it depends on how the dyne is calibrated. It can be calibrated to read higher, or lower, to make up for some external factors. Those Hub style dynos from what I've seen, read higher that Dynojet dynos. I have a Miata measured at 330whp on a Dynojet. My buddy has a Miata measured at 330whp on a Dynapack. His car is lighter than mine by approximately 300lbs (full gutted). I slowly but surely pull away from him under all circumstances. Nothing about the Si's real world performance indicates its a 225whp 3000lb car, its just too slow

BlazedSi · Apr 17, 2023

cleanneon98 said:
Nothing about the Si's real world performance indicates its a 225whp 3000lb car, its just too slow

This. In the real world, it's definitely not fast by any stretch of the imagination. The only conclusion that can be made from dyno is from the same dyno under similar conditions, just like if you weigh yourself on a scale after eating a buffet, of course it's gonna be higher than normal and it's always different than the scale at the doctor's office.

Back to the car, fun to drive - sure and very reliable and practical, which is what a Civic non-Type R should be.

KsiPhone · Apr 17, 2023

Dynos are only reliable if you are comparing two cars on the same Dyno and even then you can only say Car 2 makes 8% more horsepower than Car 1.

You can't put numbers or units to Dyno readings and expect ot to be valid across all dynos.

Jbark · Apr 18, 2023

QUOTE="KsiPhone, post: 47289, member: 3566"]
Dynos are only reliable if you are comparing two cars on the same Dyno and even then you can only say Car 2 makes 8% more horsepower than Car 1.

You can't put numbers or units to Dyno readings and expect ot to be valid across all dynos.
[/QUOTE]

Good points. They did compare it to the 10th gen (whose hp tracked with the honda literature). I assume the 10th gen was mounted to the same dyno under the same conditions, but given they weren’t done back to back, I agree there are variables.

Insofar as the real world speed of the SI is concerned, I can’t wait to see. I am at almost 600 of the 1000km ‘break in’, so I have yet to spin it up to redline or push the car in any other way. Soon!

bcpolno23 · Apr 18, 2023

Jbark said:
I just got delivery of my new SI and I'm patiently working my way through the break-in period. As many of you know, Hondata have thrown the stock 11th gen SI up on a dyno and measured 222-25 whp, which is a large chunk more than the official specs published by Honda.

So I've been wondering, why rate a car 5hp LESS than the previous generation, when it is in reality close to 25hp MORE than that generation?

My original theory was that they needed to rate the Integra at 200hp to make a large enough gap between the A-spec model and the forthcoming Type S, and that, consequently, the SI needed to be rated at 200hp to match, on paper, the specs of the Integra. I figured the Type S would come in around 240-50hp, or maybe 275, and that releasing the Integra at 225hp would not create enough of a difference to justify the price hike.

But as we now know, the Type S will be rated at 320hp, 5hp MORE than the Civic type R... It seems to me that had they released the Civic SI with an official 220/225hp spec, a 100hp gap to the Type S would more than ensure that the Type S would appeal to a different demographic and not split as many people between the SI/Integra and the type R/Type S.

So... what gives? Why under-rate the SI by so much, or by anything at all for that matter? Is there some kind of 200hp threshold in the industry, above which a company is penalized (thinking emissions, or governmental regulations...)?

Any theories...?

My full bolt on Hondata tuned 2022 Si measured 212 whp on the dyno !

kri5tian · Apr 19, 2023

Nice to read some sensible posts here. I had a guy on here blast me for questioning some dyno rating over Honda's official horsepower rating. I just can't believe a corporation like that would purposely deflate their numbers...as well as do the opposite. It just doesn't behoove them to do either.

Jbark · Apr 19, 2023

kri5tian said:
Nice to read some sensible posts here. I had a guy on here blast me for questioning some dyno rating over Honda's official horsepower rating. I just can't believe a corporation like that would purposely deflate their numbers...as well as do the opposite. It just doesn't behoove them to do either.

True, which is why I am questioning it. It is either an error on Hondata’s part (and one or two other dyno tests), or those performing the dyno tests have some interest in inflating the numbers. Given they are baseline tests, with no modifications, I wonder what incentive they have to inflate their readings, if it’s not simply sloppy science on their part (not properly controlling for temperature, atmospheric pressure etc).

But in terms of Honda, maybe they have another incentive? I suggested that it may have been to keep the power significantly under the civic type R and the Integra type S, and/or in order to meet some industry/governmental ceiling requirement for the SI and base integra (cars 200hp and under fall in category X, those over in category Y)…

Those were the only reasons I could think of… but yeah, maybe just the dynos they were mounted on, and/or some unknown incentive for Hondata et al…

It’ll likely remain a mystery…

cleanneon98 · Apr 19, 2023

Jbark said:
I wonder what incentive they have to inflate their readings

Maybe I was being too cynical, but if their initial figures are too high, then they can post dyno runs saying "a Civic Si with bolt-ons and our tune makes 250whp" and people will blindly buy into it, not knowing that the initial figures were too high and in reality the car makes 212whp as someone else had mentioned before. I don't really know if its malicious or not, but a company like Hondata IMO should have some understanding of power figures and know that the numbers they put out there simply don't add up in the real world and are likely wrong. Full bolt-on tuned Si are not even running 14.5 second 1/4 miles

Boost the blue. · Apr 21, 2023

Jbark said:
True, which is why I am questioning it. It is either an error on Hondata’s part (and one or two other dyno tests), or those performing the dyno tests have some interest in inflating the numbers. Given they are baseline tests, with no modifications, I wonder what incentive they have to inflate their readings, if it’s not simply sloppy science on their part (not properly controlling for temperature, atmospheric pressure etc).

But in terms of Honda, maybe they have another incentive? I suggested that it may have been to keep the power significantly under the civic type R and the Integra type S, and/or in order to meet some industry/governmental ceiling requirement for the SI and base integra (cars 200hp and under fall in category X, those over in category Y)…

Those were the only reasons I could think of… but yeah, maybe just the dynos they were mounted on, and/or some unknown incentive for Hondata et al…

It’ll likely remain a mystery…

They do that for multiple reasons, emission relatgations, for different countries, carbon footprint, less HP advertised....less the car is taxed....basically politics....lolo

Jbark · Apr 21, 2023

Boost the blue. said:
They do that for multiple reasons, emission relatgations, for different countries, carbon footprint, less HP advertised....less the car is taxed....basically politics....lolo

that's surely the answer. I suspected so!

stevej37 · Apr 22, 2023

I wouldn't care if Honda rated it at 95 bhp.
It still has plenty of go for me....what they call it, is immaterial.

Why did Honda under rate power on the civic SI?

Jbark

BlazedSi

Jbark

cleanneon98

Jbark

cleanneon98

BlazedSi

KsiPhone

Jbark

bcpolno23

kri5tian

Jbark

cleanneon98

Boost the blue.

Jbark

stevej37

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